Discussion:
OT: High School Kids No Longer Shower after Playing Sports or Gym Class?
(too old to reply)
Suzanne D.
2009-08-21 15:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Eh. Tantrums don't bother me. If a kid is screaming in a store, what do I
care? I mean, as long as it's not my kid. And no, it isn't practical to
leave a cartful of groceries, especially if it happens everytime. What if
all the kid has learned is that when he's bored with being in the store
all
he has to do is start yelling and he gets to go home?
Then he/she's a spoiled brat--shame on the parents. ;-)
_____________________

In another post you yourself advocated removing the child from the store--in
fact, implying that it was the only acceptable action ("no exceptions").
Now you are saying that this produces a spoiled brat. Or do you actually
think that the action of taking a child to the car is that fundamentally
different from the action of taking the child home? The way I see it, as
soon as the child gets what he wants (to stop you from shopping and pay
attention to him, in this case), he's won, and you've spoiled him. Do you
honestly think that merely taking him to the car instead of taking him home
would mean the difference between not spoiling and spoiling? I wonder if
the kid who successfully used his tantrum to get you to stop shopping and
pay attention to him would see it that way.
--S.
Peach
2009-08-21 16:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Suzanne D.
Eh. Tantrums don't bother me. If a kid is screaming in a store, what do I
care? I mean, as long as it's not my kid. And no, it isn't practical to
leave a cartful of groceries, especially if it happens everytime. What if
all the kid has learned is that when he's bored with being in the store
all
he has to do is start yelling and he gets to go home?
Then he/she's a spoiled brat--shame on the parents. ;-)
_____________________
In another post you yourself advocated removing the child from the store--in
fact, implying that it was the only acceptable action ("no exceptions").
Now you are saying that this produces a spoiled brat.  Or do you actually
think that the action of taking a child to the car is that fundamentally
different from the action of taking the child home?  The way I see it, as
soon as the child gets what he wants (to stop you from shopping and pay
attention to him, in this case), he's won, and you've spoiled him.  Do you
honestly think that merely taking him to the car instead of taking him home
would mean the difference between not spoiling and spoiling?  I wonder if
the kid who successfully used his tantrum to get you to stop shopping and
pay attention to him would see it that way.
--S.
The "going home" isn't to be given as some sort of reward. I thought
you were the wise parent. You don't just take them home for fun and
games, sweetie.

Peach
Bob Rudd
2009-08-21 16:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Jeffrey made all of Ina's "front money" from his days on Wall Street
while she was still thinking about opening her own store. After he made
enough so as to never have to work another day in his/their life, he
went to Yale and began teaching and administration.
Who told you that? Jeffrey? LOL Seriously, I'm sure it was a joint effort,
but.........
"Strained by the pressures of her work and the serious, high-power setting
of Washington, Garten once again turned to cooking and entertaining in her
free time, constantly arranging dinner parties and soirées at her home on
the weekends. Meanwhile, she was buying, refurbishing, and reselling homes
for profit neighborhoods. The funds from these sales gave Garten the means
to make her next purchase, the Barefoot Contessa specialty food emporium."
Ina worked in a mid-level WH position under Carter involving nuclear
issues. Jeffrey was working his way through the Treasury.

He was the Managing Partner of Lehman Brothers (when all was well) among
numerous other Street positions. Seriously, Cheri, he's been Ina's
money man/backer almost from day one. She ran with his investments and
make herself a huge financial success but she's never approached his
level of either financial expertise or success. The guy is in the tier
below Warren Buffett in the eyes of many who know what they are talking
about within the financial community. He's that good and that smart.

Smart enough to get paid for showing his face on the opening and "coming
in the door" on about half of the new episodes in the past few years, as
well :-)
--
People who say "It's not the heat, it's the humidity" are crazy, it's
both together!
Bob Rudd
2009-08-21 16:48:28 UTC
Permalink
In article <h6kins$ak$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@NOSPAMsbcglobal.net
says...
Well, I didn't say to mine politely "you may not have a tantrum". That's
really going to get their attention, NOT. What I did, each time my kids
tried out their first tantrum, is get right in their face, point my finger,
and give them a firm NO! There was never a second attempt at a tantrum.
Tantrums were unacceptable, period. If that meant leaving a full dinner
with a paid bill in a restaurant or a cart at the grocery manager's desk
to be restocked, so be it.

Tantrums were immediately dealt with and strongly disapproved of as well
as punished.

The kids learned pretty quick, even at young ages.
--
People who say "It's not the heat, it's the humidity" are crazy, it's
both together!
Bob Rudd
2009-08-21 16:51:30 UTC
Permalink
And even if the recidivism rate for sex offenses is high, there's a
bunch of offenses that are right behind it, coming close seconds and
thirds. Why not track those people, too? Why only the number one slot?
Maybe we should.
But because most real sex offenders prey on our children and women, they
have been singled out compared to other criminals.
So some citizens are more important than others?
Some are just considered to be more precious by our society.
And that's just the way it is.
- Peter
I'm still gettin' on the lifeboat asap, regardless of the "women and
children first" bit. Is saving a man's life somehow less important?
If you fill up a lifeboat with just women and children, who's going to row?
Rosie O'Donnell and Billy Jean King.
-greg
You do realize that if that lifeboat of women and children needs food,
who better to sacrifice first than the only man. Now, if you do things
like moisturize your skin etc....well, that only makes you more tender
to eat.

You might want to rethink that position, greg, I think Rosie would
quickly size you up as a pretty good piece of steak or hind quarter
stew.
--
People who say "It's not the heat, it's the humidity" are crazy, it's
both together!
Lesmond
2009-08-21 16:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Peach
2009-08-21 16:59:12 UTC
Permalink
I have never in my life given in to a child who is having a tantrum. ˜And
you are correct, no means no, and that includes tantrums.
So again, how do you stop it? ˜If you are in pubic and a child has a
tantrum, and you say, "You may not have a tantrum," and they have it anyway,
what do you do?
--S.
I believe many of us have already answered this. You remove the child
from the location. ÿAnd yes, it's not always convenient, and yes, you
might have to leave a cart of groceries there...but don't you think
kids *know* when it's not convienient to discipline? No exceptions.
Sometimes discipline is hard on the parent, too....that's the
problem.
Eh. ÿTantrums don't bother me. ÿIf a kid is screaming in a store, what do I
care? ÿI mean, as long as it's not my kid. ÿAnd no, it isn't practical to
leave a cartful of groceries, especially if it happens everytime. ÿWhat if
all the kid has learned is that when he's bored with being in the store all
he has to do is start yelling and he gets to go home?
Then he/she's a spoiled brat--shame on the parents. ;-)  I wasn't
advising to take the home...but thanks for the assumption!
I'm sorry.  Where were you advising the parent take them?
--
The house was full of wildlife and all the pies were gone.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I should clarify...the consequence is to be just that--a consequence.
It isn't just the act of being removed from the premises. There are
consequences beyond that, however the parent sees fit.

Peach
Lesmond
2009-08-21 17:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Susan
2009-08-21 17:38:26 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
But what if the only goal of the child is to leave the store? What if they
don't care if you take their blankie away or withhold lunch?
I'm assuming here that we're talking about 2-3 year olds. They're not great
on reasoning. Any punishment they receive once home might not even be
connected in their mind with what happened in the store.
There's always something, from video games to favorite shows to play
dates or favorite toys to early bed time, which is one I never used.

Susan
Peach
2009-08-21 17:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan
x-no-archive: yes
But what if the only goal of the child is to leave the store?  What if they
don't care if you take their blankie away or withhold lunch?
I'm assuming here that we're talking about 2-3 year olds.  They're not great
on reasoning.  Any punishment they receive once home might not even be
connected in their mind with what happened in the store.
There's always something, from video games to favorite shows to play
dates or favorite toys to early bed time, which is one I never used.
Susan
I agree with Susan....and 2-3 year olds have better minds than you
might think, Lesmond.

Anyway, Lesmond...I think you're just playing devil's advocate...since
you never had children with tantrums either. Therefore, this is just
entering the realm of the ridiculous and pretty pointless, don't you
think?

Peach
Lesmond
2009-08-21 17:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Peach
2009-08-21 18:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peach
Post by Susan
x-no-archive: yes
But what if the only goal of the child is to leave the store? ÿWhat if they
don't care if you take their blankie away or withhold lunch?
I'm assuming here that we're talking about 2-3 year olds. ÿThey're not great
on reasoning. ÿAny punishment they receive once home might not even be
connected in their mind with what happened in the store.
There's always something, from video games to favorite shows to play
dates or favorite toys to early bed time, which is one I never used.
Susan
I agree with Susan....and 2-3 year olds have better minds than you
might think, Lesmond.
Anyway, Lesmond...I think you're just playing devil's advocate...since
you never had children with tantrums either. Therefore, this is just
entering the realm of the ridiculous and pretty pointless, don't you
think?
No, I've seen my niece and what worked and didn't with her.  I clearly
remember my sister's behavior when we were kids.  What works for some or even
most children simply does not work for them all.  Why not give the mother the
benefit of the doubt?
I'd rather see the 2 year old in the cart having a fit, rather than the 7 and
8 year olds treating the store as a playground or a race track.
--
Did you read my reply to Suzanne? I said whatever works for you,
great.... if it made the tantrums stop before the age when they are
*way* too old to be having them, then bravo. As I said, R.I.F.

Peach
Susan
2009-08-21 17:36:23 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
--
The house was full of wildlife and all the pies were gone.
Outside, a dressing room, a quiet corner, for a brief sit in the car, it
depends where you are. Home if the child cannot pull it together.

I never had to go home because my child understood very early that
tantrums in public were never going to fly, but on two occasions in
toddlerhood, we had to step outside to help her be composed and to spare
other people the experience. I never threatened her or scared her, just
told her why we were leaving and what she needed to do so we could go back.

Kids will behave as well as you teach them to, and the "removal" lesson
rarely needs to be repeated, particularly if the removal is connected to
a loss of privilege(s) once at home. Honestly, I rarely in her life had
to punish my child, because the behaviors that might elicit punishment
were very clear to her, consistently for her whole life. I also chose
my battles very carefully, not making a federal case out of every little
transgression so that the big ones (like consideration for others,
polite speech) carried more weight.

I didn't like punishment as a kid nor as a parent, so I made sure my kid
knew what it was, that it could happen and that she had a choice to
make. She chose wisely, as a rule and we both avoided outcomes we
didn't like.

Susan
Peach
2009-08-21 16:57:25 UTC
Permalink
How are you going to know what his/her tantrum is about?  Are you
skilled in mind-reading, too? (Being a "wise parent," and all.)
________________________
Well yeah, it's often very possible to tell what a tantrum is about!
Different types of screaming, what they say, etc.  A tired whine is usually
pretty different from an "I don't want to be here!" whine.
The wise parent does what she can, and
then finally says "Well, I am sorry you feel this way, but the shopping
needs to be done and is going to get done, and no amount of screaming is
going to change that."
LOL..... the same wise parent that I hear saying, "Okaaayyy??
Okaaaayyy???"  Ad nauseum, as they try to reason with the child.
__________________________
That's why if reasoning doesn't work after a few seconds, then it's time to
go straight to ignore.
-S.
You have your ways, and obviously, other parents have theirs. If
yours were successful and your children outgrew their tantrums....IOW,
weren't still having them at ages 5, 6, etc., then good for you. There
is more than one way to parent, as we have seen from the other parents
here. The "removing them from the store way" worked with my friends'
kids, so I have seen its success.... it never was an issue I had to
deal with.

Peach
Lesmond
2009-08-21 17:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Susan
2009-08-21 17:43:35 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Look, I'm really sorry, but if your child never had tantrums, how do you know
what works? Mine didn't, but I knew kids who did. They don't even seem to
*hear* you or *see* you when they're flipping out. Sometimes they turn blue.
A stern look won't stop that.
No, it won't; but removal and help quieting down will.

The major point isn't fear or punishment, for me, but about supporting
your child's ability to calm herself, regain control and to be socially
appropriate and welcome company for others. Folks like considerate,
well mannered kids a lot more than the ones who's parents think it's
acceptable to scream their heads off in public. I think not helping
your child to learn self control and good social behavior socially
handicaps them, often for life.

It helps if the parent is considerate of others, polite and exercises
self control, modeling the desired behavior. It's key.

Susan
Peach
2009-08-21 17:47:20 UTC
Permalink
\> No, I'm talking about the temper tantrum squeal. Kicking and screaming
and
throwing a big old fashioned hissy fit. Probably because Mama wouldn't
buy him a bag of cookies or whatever.
See, that sort of thing doesn't bother me, because it means Mom is
standing
her ground on some unpopular decision. I think it's silly to expect little
kids to always take "no" for an answer graciously. I'd much rather see a
kid having a tantrum for not getting his way than to see a mother give him
his way to avoid a tantrum.
I was lucky...my daughter didn't have tantrums. :-)
Of course she didn't.
--S.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, she really didn't.... kids have different temperaments. Not ALL
kids have tantrums.  And it had nothing to do with me. Genetic
makeup...easy-going kid.
Look, I'm really sorry, but if your child never had tantrums, how do you know
what works?  Mine didn't, but I knew kids who did.  They don't even seem to
*hear* you or *see* you when they're flipping out.  Sometimes they turn blue.
 A stern look won't stop that.
R.I.F., right? I said I have friends whose children *did* have
tantrums...I spent plenty of time with them, and I saw what worked and
what didn't. You have your anecdotes of other people's children
turning blue, and I have mine.

Peach
Suzy
2009-08-21 18:26:57 UTC
Permalink
I have never in my life given in to a child who is having a tantrum.
And
you are correct, no means no, and that includes tantrums.
So again, how do you stop it? If you are in pubic and a child has a
tantrum, and you say, "You may not have a tantrum," and they have it
anyway,
what do you do?
--S.
I believe many of us have already answered this. You remove the child
from the location.
____________________
Yes dear, if you have been paying attention, *I* have suggested this
several times. But I was addressing Suzy, who for all intents and
purposes has appeared to believe that a stern look and a rule against
tantrums in public will do the trick.
To be clear, it's a stern look, a firm NO! and a rule against ALL tantrums,
public or otherwise. Who's the boss?

I have 3 grown children, three grandchildren, and numerous nieces and
nephews, plus children of friends that I have cared for over the last 40 odd
years. My method works every time, the first time. I'm not claiming to be
any super-wise mother who suddenly came up with this method. This is the
way it has always beed done, that is, until this current generation came
along and drags their little brats around, wailing like an ambulance,
annoying the hell out of everyone else within earshot.

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I have no wish
to fight with you.
--
Susie
Time flies when you are having rum!
Suzanne D.
2009-08-21 19:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Suzy
Yes dear, if you have been paying attention, *I* have suggested this
several times. But I was addressing Suzy, who for all intents and
purposes has appeared to believe that a stern look and a rule against
tantrums in public will do the trick.
To be clear, it's a stern look, a firm NO! and a rule against ALL
tantrums, public or otherwise. Who's the boss?
I just find it amusing that someone would think a rule, a stern look, and a
"NO!" would suffice. You still have not said what you would do if these
three failed, which, for many kids, they would.
--S.

Suzy
2009-08-21 19:31:20 UTC
Permalink
I have never in my life given in to a child who is having a tantrum.
And
you are correct, no means no, and that includes tantrums.
So again, how do you stop it? If you are in pubic and a child has a
tantrum, and you say, "You may not have a tantrum," and they have it
anyway, what do you do?
--S.
Well, I didn't say to mine politely "you may not have a tantrum". That's
really going to get their attention, NOT. What I did, each time my kids
tried out their first tantrum, is get right in their face, point my
finger,
and give them a firm NO! There was never a second attempt at a tantrum.
I dunno, maybe I just look scary or something :-)
I have never wanted my child to be scared of me.
Good! Because that is not what I said.
And no, he didn't have tantrums in public. Or pretty much ever. Neither
did
I, as a kid. But some kids do, like my sister and my niece and telling
them
"no" isn't going to stop it.
Did your sister tell them NO, or please don't do this honey?
--
Susie
Time flies when you are having rum!
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